Doubles
I was reading about the German writer Goethe and the Hungarian teacher Emelie Sagee and their ‘double’ experiences.
Whilst Goethe saw his future self on one occasion, Sagee on the other hand was able to be in two places at the same time purely from intent. It lost her quite a few jobs.
I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experiences or know of any? Theories would be great too.
I was reading about the German writer Goethe and the Hungarian teacher Emelie Sagee and their ‘double’ experiences.
Whilst Goethe saw his future self on one occasion, Sagee on the other hand was able to be in two places at the same time purely from intent. It lost her quite a few jobs.
I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experiences or know of any? Theories would be great too.
I myself have had one experience which I think could be linked to this but I don’t want to try and clarify it.
Could these experiences be put down to ‘loops’ in time? Or simply our own ability to predict? Or in Sagee’s case, purely because we wish to be doubled?
Re: Doubles
Theres a type of ghost called a "Doppleganger" (Dopple bieng german for double). These ghosts or biengs take the appearance of someone else, traditionally it is believed that one cannot ever see there own doppleganger, because if they do, both the doppleganger and the actual person die
Re: Doubles
I don’t think these are dopplegangers cases but the input is very helpful.
Re: Doubles
To be honest I know nothing about this case, so I googled Emelie Sagee and this forum topic actually came up third in the list. (I love our google ratings).
On wiki they refer it as dopplegangers.
Emilie Sagée
Robert Dale Owen was responsible for writing down the singular case of Emilie Sagée. He was told this anecdote by Julie von Güldenstubbe, a Latvian aristocrat. Von Güldenstubbe reported that in the year 1845–46, at the age of 13, she witnessed, along with audiences of between 13 and 42 children, her 32-year-old French teacher Sagée bilocate, in broad daylight, inside her school, Pensionat von Neuwelcke. The actions of Sagée’s doppelgänger included:
Mimicking writing and eating, but with nothing in its hands.
Moving independently of Sagée, and remaining motionless while she moved.
Appearing to be in full health at a time when Sagée was badly ill.
Apparently, the doppelgänger also exerted resistance to the touch, but was non-physical (one girl passed through the doppelgänger’s body).
It is an aspect of the paranormal I have no experience in investigating, though it is fascinating. I wonder how common this type of phenomena is.
Re: Doubles
Sagee when asked about her ‘doubling’ said she was concious of being in two places at the same time and that the experience would be a draining one. For example, on one occasion she was outside teaching a girls class when she saw an unattended class through the window. Believing they ought to be attended, her double materialized in the classroom and taught the class inside, whilst at the same time teaching the class outside. The only thing the students could detect, other than the double, was that the original Sagee seemed more tired.
Bizarre. I believe she got fired over 13 times because of her doubling acts.
Re: Doubles
The name Guldenstubbe keeps popping up again! See the "moving coffins" topic for more information: a member of the same noble family was the magistrate who investigated disturbances in the Buxhoeweden family chapel on the Island of Oesel.
To get back to the subjects of "doubles" a number of Christian Saints were said to be able to produce "doubles" of themselves. Saint Anthony of Padua was said to be able to preach in two churches at the same time. He usually gave his sermon, sat down, seemingly fell into a trace, and at the same his double appeared in another church to gave a sermon and then disappear.
A famous medium, Agnes Guppy, is said to have either generated a double or to have teleported to seance held in London, about three miles from her home.
In Distortion We Trust
Re: Doubles
I’ve been told that my double was seen once. I was in an entirly different part of the building, in front of quite a few people, so I know I wasn’t there.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Doubles
I once met my double!
I used to walk along the same path every day on the way to work and I was stopped once by an elederly man. He told me his son could have been my double. On a subsequent walk past I saw the son with his father and it was true. I’m afraid I can’t remember what my reaction was as it was a long time ago but I’m guessing it felt weird.
Re: Doubles
MS, I think that they’re talking about a different kind of double. I belive it’s the same thing as a doppleganger.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Doubles
[quote=BaronIveagh]MS, I think that they’re talking about a different kind of double. I belive it’s the same thing as a doppleganger.[/quote]
A double is NOT the same thing as a doppelganger. It is important to differentiate between the two and not use such terms loosely. Anyone can have a double who is simply someone who resembles them closely.
There are very few cases of doppelgangers and I have yet to come across one which is at all compelling.
Re: Doubles
Ok, what I was talking about was a doppleganger, since it vanished, rather then walked away.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Doubles
[quote=Mysteryshopper]
A double is NOT the same thing as a doppelganger. It is important to differentiate between the two and not use such terms loosely. Anyone can have a double who is simply someone who resembles them closely.
There are very few cases of doppelgangers and I have yet to come across one which is at all compelling.[/quote]
I think, had you read my first post properly, you might have understood what this discussion is about. The use of ‘doppleganger’ is purely optional as I do not believe the experiences of those I mentioned in my first post, were, infact, dopplegangers. None the less, as it is debatable, I don’t see why people shouldn’t use that term.
As these cases were recorded as ‘double’ incidents, I think we have every right to use the word.
‘Double’ when applied to those with similiar facial features is a bit lazy anyway… I mean, technically no one is doubled by another completely.
Re: Doubles
[quote=Ecardina][quote=Mysteryshopper] I mean, technically no one is doubled by another completely.[/quote]
Clones and identical twins.
Eh, I’ll tell the story about mine. We had gone back to the house with the floating fireplace insert a year or two later, thinking to try and get some good photographic evidence this time. While I was downstairs talking ot the owners, one of our team excused herself to go to the facilites. When she came out, she saw me sitting there on chair outside th bathroom door, reading a National Geographic. She told ‘me’ it was vacent, and turned, hearing me talking downstairs, and then turned back, and no one was there.
Unfortunetly, that was the only incident that trip. Much to my chagrin.
Summum Nec Metuam Diem Nec Optima
Re: Doubles
[quote=Ecardina]I think, had you read my first post properly, you might have understood what this discussion is about. The use of ‘doppleganger’ is purely optional as I do not believe the experiences of those I mentioned in my first post, were, infact, dopplegangers. None the less, as it is debatable, I don’t see why people shouldn’t use that term.[/quote]
In your first post you mention Goethe’s well-known account which is neither double nor doppelganger. He claims to have met his future self which, if taken at face value, would imply some sort of time distortion or projection. Doppelgangers, by contrast, are supposedly identical in every respect, including the apparent age.
[quote]As these cases were recorded as ‘double’ incidents, I think we have every right to use the word.[/quote]
People may record such an incident as a double simply because they are not aware of doppelgangers. It doesn’t make their use of the term helpful. To use doppelganger and double interchangeably is confusing.
[quote]’Double’ when applied to those with similiar facial features is a bit lazy anyway… I mean, technically no one is doubled by another completely.[/quote]
I think a ‘double’ goes way beyond similar facial features. The double I met was the same height and build as me, as well as having a similar face, and could easily be mistaken for me by anyone but a close friend. I think the resemblance should be striking, similar to identical twins, for someone to be called a double. Such doubles could easily give rise to reports of doppelgangers but a little investigation would soon solve such a case.
Re: Doubles
Emilie Sagee’s case was typical of a doppelganger, rather than a double. The doppelganger was reportedly seen at the same time as the original and even imitated her actions. There is too little material available, however, to come to any conclusion about this case.
Re: Doubles
[quote=BaronIveagh]
Clones and identical twins.[/quote]
I know several pairs of identical twins who have visible differences. For a start, their vocal cords are never exactly the same. There will be small differences in measurements in facial features, height etc. Yes, it is true that at the beginning, they are completely the same but once a foteus they go on their own course. With clones, they may share the same DNA but they never look like a ‘clone’ of the person they have been cloned from.
Nature just doesn’t tend to create perfect doubles right down to the core.
[quote=BaronIveagh]
Eh, I’ll tell the story about mine. We had gone back to the house with the floating fireplace insert a year or two later, thinking to try and get some good photographic evidence this time. While I was downstairs talking ot the owners, one of our team excused herself to go to the facilites. When she came out, she saw me sitting there on chair outside th bathroom door, reading a National Geographic. She told ‘me’ it was vacent, and turned, hearing me talking downstairs, and then turned back, and no one was there.
Unfortunetly, that was the only incident that trip. Much to my chagrin.
[/quote]
That is a very interesting experience. Thanks for sharing.
Mysteryshopper, there is no other word but ‘double’ (that I know of) for the case of Goethe. You seem to have theories which would exclude this word, fair enough but I’d like to continue using it. There is more than one meaning for the word ‘double’ and one of those is ‘two of the same’. Is not meeting yourself mean you are doubled? I’d like to continue using ‘double’, just as the book I read called it.
Personally, I don’t really care about nit picking the words, I want to know about experiences. What I am interested in is finding out how it occured that he met his future self and if it has been experienced by others. I want to know theories. Wasting our time with definitions isn’t going to help, so lets just call it quits.
Re: Doubles
In the Goethe case he wrote “It is strange, however, that, eight years afterward, I found myself on the very road, to pay one more visit to Frederica, in the dress of which I had dreamed, and which I wore, not from choice, but by accident.”
Thus the incident he saw originally lster actually happened. He doesn’t mention seeing his younger self on this later occasion. The most obvious interpretation is therefore not a double or doppelganger or even a time slip but instead an accurate premonition.
Many premonitions concern events that supposedly will happen to the subject themselves, rather thsn a third party, though they rarely come true. Premonitions come in many forms, like dreams, visions or knowledge simply popping into someone’s head. In Goethe’s case it appears to have been a daydream. He says “As soon as I shook myself out of this dream, the figure had entirely disappeared.”
So my interpretation of this case is not a double or doppelganger but a premonition. It is quite unlike typical doppelganger cases. Indeed, I don’t know of any similar examples. Perhaps someone else does.
Re: Doubles
Actually, I agree with you. Premonition seems most likely.
Re: Doubles
Another good example of this phenomena from the late 20th century was Dr. Alex Tanous. He was a highly gifted subject who was well-studied at the ASPR.
Tanous was a veridical OBE agent. He was seen in two locations on several occasions. The reports are from very trustworthy sources. The reports were produced in a very timely manner and sent to the ASPR for verification. The details suggest that Tanous’ double (who he called “Alex 2”) was completely able to interact and was not distinguishable from Alex himself. This double shook hands with experients, drank tea and in every way seemed real.
Except that the double never left any footprints or tracks of any kind. There was just enough strangeness in the experience to cause the experients to realize after the fact that something was not right.
I would suggest that the differentiation among doppelgangers, doubles and so on may be artificial.
What all this pointing to is that our reality may be far more delicate and fragile than we believe. We know from experiments in quantum mechanics that information plays a central role in the existence of our apparent material reality. So it may be that we can, in minor and localized ways, actually influence that information and thus the nature of our perceived reality.
This would explain not only doubles produced during OBEs, but also apparitions of the living in general and even materialization phenomena (apports and deports).
Anomalous Phenomena is Unexplained not Impossible
Psi is Subtle not Absolute
Anything is possible, it’a all a matter of Probability